What on [00:26:00] Earth is happening? The doctor called the police, and the police came and arrested him. I, myself, as a clinician, I lean on supervisors, referrals, psychiatrists. I’m a PhD level marriage and family therapist. Thoughts, feelings, and sensations may also be connected to trauma memories. On average, it takes anywhere from eighteen months to three years to recover from a betrayal trauma (and that’s with help and support). Two-thirds and 44% with personality [00:36:30] disorder traits? Yeah, he was shutting down my bank account, he was doing all of the … His actions were all like, “Throw my wife and kids under the bus and save myself. A bishop or a priesthoodleader could experience that same dynamic by involving professional counselors in the day-to-day what’s happening, what am I missing, [00:36:00] type of scenario, right? So what I mean by giving them an out is to teach a member, you know, it’s very common for these [00:23:00] stories not to be … for us not to be able to put them all together right away. It was some of my church leaders, my now ex-husband, his family, etc. . Right, and some accountability on his end. What do we do with that? Is my husband so … Are [00:14:30] his behaviors so far on the spectrum that I need to set some pretty serious boundaries? Does this resonate? Ultimately, the road to recovery is long and difficult, but you can transcend this painful crisis with the right support, guidance, and patience. If I were to give a piece of advice that has helped me personally when I’m working with a lot of chaos, [00:20:30] it’s to slow down. Understanding trauma triggers, and learning to manage them, is a big part of healing from betrayal trauma. It’s a foundational skill on which to build a more emotionally regulated future. Those things are not going to go away magically. But at the time I didn’t know that, and so if a bishop looks at that and thinks, “Well, like a year ago she didn’t say that he was abusive. I feel the promptings, I feel the encouragement from the other side of the veil, but … man, I want to help, but this is hard. As a former bishop I’ve had similar individuals in front of me, looking at me as their priesthoodleader, [00:40:00] and inside I’m just thinking I don’t exactly know what to do. This betrayal can happen to these victims multiple times. Oh boy, there’s so much to that question and answer, but let me … If I can just invite us to step way back for a moment, and consider some cultural dynamics. Anne Blythe: Yeah, and things that were frankly [00:33:30] untrue. I’m trying to sort this out myself. There’s always a team. That includes being physically and spiritual safe. Sexual addiction, pornography addiction, and more traditional forms of infidelity as well. I ended up holding him accountable, and the law and the police held him accountable. I still hold him accountable, in that I do not communicate with him, because he’s still abusive, and so I go through a third party. I’m sure betrayal trauma happens on both the sides of a relationship, but we’re going to recognize that we’re talking about a spouse and that this is something that needs to be recognized. She is on two national boards, Enough is Enough and App Status. What I hear you saying, Anne, but you’re not using the words, is secondary trauma. And this can shut down your partner and deter positive progress you both may have made in the healing process. “Hey, you need to take six weeks out of the home?” or whatever. What I mean is, there is some type of action taken to increase her safety. So it wasn’t like I had a trauma and then it stopped, and nobody believed me. I think it’s important to just be aware that when someone, especially someone who is addicted [00:18:00] and is very shamed about those behaviors … feeling shameful, I should say … There’s minimizing, there’s downplaying, there’s gaslighting. Understanding betrayal trauma is an integral part of unraveling and healing from your relationship crisis. Our studies have shown that 43% of spouses continue to feel the side of effects of Betrayal Trauma for more than two years. Then when that comes to light, and she understands … I’ll speak in a gender segregated way, just for the ease of our conversation here. I just want to make a distinction [00:09:30] between those two, because very often people will minimize betrayal trauma, saying, “Oh, come on, how can this be worse or equal to what someone deals with on the battlefield?” Well, when a soldier’s preparing for war, and they’re in a battle situation, they are not in any way, shape, or form psychologically expecting the enemy to be protective of them. There’s a lot [00:13:30] in this, so I just want to echo my support in what you just shared, Kurt. Dr Jill Manning: … that I think is not spoken of enough, relative to this whole issue, and that is of unrighteous dominion. Tell me the thing that may be hardest for you to admit.” I think it’s important to give the man an out, meaning … What I mean by that [00:22:30] is to train our leaders to assume we’re not going to get the full story up front, at first. So I don’t blame bishops either, because I have been in that situation, where I’m trying to figure out, are these behaviors abusive? Tell me what your gut tells you.” Because when a woman has lived with someone that’s been gaslighting or minimizing behavior for years, [00:21:30] it is incredibly disorienting and distorting. But man, she seems overreactive, and what’s happening here? I’ll touch base with your spouse and make sure that he has support there.”. I would have a different plan. Dr Jill Manning: Oh boy, there’s so much to that question and answer, but let me … If I can just invite us to step way back for a moment, and consider some cultural dynamics. Safety is … It’s an unsafe situation. There would be police reports, possibly arrest and jail time [00:08:00] for the perpetrator. What I mean is, there is some type of action taken to increase her safety. You’re simply unable to stop thinking about these past events and falling asleep feels more like a struggle or a chore rather than something natural or essential for your well-being . Okay, what’d you do? Boy, the wife though. She has a website and hosts a podcast, Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Well, and something else that I find people experience, is interesting, but I hope it’s also helpful information. What final encouragement or thoughts do you have for leaders, or more of your story that would help us understand maybe some situations happening in our own wards? I sit on two national boards, Enough is Enough, which focuses on internet safety, and also APSATS, which focuses on certifying and training those that are specializing in partners of sex addiction work, and I’m a clinician in private practice. There is trauma that comes from the initial discovery or the event that’s causing harm. Jill, maybe you can speak to this, as a counselor, because I’m sure you experience this he said/she said that … I think a bishop … he’s considering all angles at least the best he can, and he sees this husband that, “Man, yeah, he’s made some mistakes, and he’s working on it. We could find out later that it’s not, and that’s great, that’s fine. Secondly, because we share a life with that person, the perpetrator [00:07:30] of the betrayal, the likelihood of that reoccurring is higher than in other types of traumas. When she realizes that she has been betrayed, oftentimes for years, it’s extremely traumatic. We’ve been researching and discussing betrayal trauma for probably two decades now, but I think there’s more understanding of how betrayal trauma certainly applies, and really is at the heart of these types of issues. They can also gas light the situation and manipulate reality. So if he needs to be out of the home, for example, because there are … It could be because she feels so unsafe and she just needs a little separation for a time, to kind of take a breather, see what’s going to happen, and he won’t leave? Because prior to this he had been to multiple therapists, he had been working on his addiction, he presented as this person in recovery. Yeah, he was shutting down my bank account, he was doing all of the … His actions were all like, “Throw my wife and kids under the bus and save myself. But just like I say a lot of time on Leading Saints, our hope here is providing resources. It is important that you take steps to “re-learn” how to listen to your instincts (who’s safe, who’s not), practice healthier boundaries with others, and re-establish what your values are, what your passions are, and who you are as an individual. But we, humans can experience secondary trauma when we reach out for help [00:28:00] and then get blown off, or dismissed, or not believed, or have a less than nurturing experience. They can be people, places, things, or situations. When we speak of spouses, though, when we really look at what is their motivation, what would be the motivation to lie or twist that? I attended the temple every week during that time. I think for this conversation we’ll assume that the spouse is female. … that I think is not spoken of enough, relative to this whole issue, and that is of unrighteous dominion. It’s always okay to slow down, unless there’s an immediate life or death situation. Anne Blythe: I think one of the things for wives, for my Betrayal Trauma Recovery community online … One of the things I see as being the most helpful for wives, in terms of feeling supported from their leaders, is their husband being held accountable for [00:29:30] his behaviors and for his actions. If you need to talk, I’m here. 15:41 It can take women some time to realize they are in an abusive relationship. Kurt Francom: Betrayal trauma is a concept … I think it’s … [00:06:30] I don’t know, is that a clinical term, Jill? If someone’s not sober, chances are that their brain is not eve physiologically capable of pulling that story together, because they’ve been compartmentalizing it for years, and working really hard to forget. He’s screaming and yelling at me,” or whatever the behaviors were. I grew up with a father in the military who has done several posts overseas, and I was born overseas on a military base. Even though I could not feel peace, because it was so traumatic and things were so awful, [00:42:00] I continued to obey the commandments, I continued to attend the temple, I continued to go to church. So we do, in our culture, have a tendency to protect our own, to try to deal with things in house, and to believe people, both sides, when they come forward with a story. When someone tells us something, we take that as truth. “It’s when people feel like they have to hold back [emotions] or they can’t get angry or there’s nobody there to listen to them that actually creates trauma or at least makes it worse,” Usatynski says. Yeah, and I think the fact that that term has the word trauma in it is very important to recognize, because there is trauma happening. You mentioned this he [00:16:30] said/she said battle, that a lot of leaders sort of get trapped in, right? She is an adjunct therapist and educator at Avalon Malibu, a treatment center for substance abuse and mental health disorders. Rekindle Your Intuition and Empower Yourself. We know from at least three studies that I’m aware of, one that has just come out in the last few months, that between 69 and 71% of women meet the criteria for PTSD because of the betrayal trauma. It is, and it’s gained in popularity in the last few years, but it’s not a new term. Experiencing betrayal can cause extreme emotional flooding, making self-regulation difficult. Previously, she helped to develop and run the Substance Abuse and Intimacy Disorder Program at Promises Malibu – a comprehensive multi-focused addiction treatment program that was the first of its kind in the world. memories and trauma may remain for months or even years later. Maybe support from the bishop. For me, I didn’t understand what was happening in my life. I was painted as the bad [00:27:30] guy, and so that was just so difficult to have even my own bishop, who’s supposed to be supporting me through this horrific event, believe him, right? 13:51 As a Mormon culture we are a trusting people. Kristin Minto Snowden, MA, LMFT, specializes in helping individuals and couples recover and heal from addiction, depression, anxiety, trauma, loss, infidelity, and other relationship challenges. I will be here to listen and support you, and it’s okay if you come back with more information about this.” Does that make sense? The brain is the most complex organ, and your recovery pain depends on your age, general health, brain plasticity, and commitment to therapy and treatment. She said he was trying really hard,” or “This is what she thought.” She’s going through this process too. So I just think that, I’m hoping, could be helpful information for leaders to be aware of. Hopefully we can help, or point them in the right direction to help them unwind this. If someone says something’s true, we don’t often question that. I probably would avoid that part of town. Yeah, that’s helpful. As a victim of betrayal trauma, you have every right to feel your pain at it's true capacity. Kurt Francom: What about you? But if that wife feels like that’s the course of action, just having that support and saying, “You know what, you do what you need to do and we’ll be here. So when someone comes into my office, as a clinician, I am making an assumption and then ruling out through testing and good clinical interviewing. Those things are not going to go away magically. I’ve spoken with … I mean, having done this work, and being LDS myself for many years, I think it’s important to put on the table a cultural dynamic that’s just really at the core of this. Anne Blythe: I kept attending church because I knew it was the right thing, even though church itself during that time was extremely traumatic for me. It needs to. I am so sorry. When they have safety on the mind, those are not the leaders that are [00:39:00] waiting a long time to call in resources. Sure. Anne, what about you? Jill, [00:38:00] I know you’re short on time. [00:34:00] Using another person, having dominion over another person, for selfish gain. So just know that this is very sensitive, and we’re going to jump into this in hope that we can create some more clarity, a new perspective, and help you be a better leader, and help these spouses that are experiencing betrayal trauma. What types of pornography are you struggling with? I did not want to get divorced, but I did need safety. I mean, literally throw it away! Dr Jill Manning: Betrayal trauma is when someone that we are close to, or even dependent upon for our survival, for example a child to a parent, violates our trust in a critical way. Her website and podcast are dedicated to helping support women through this trauma. That we lean into that and really make sure that we are helping both parties get the support they need. Traumatic bonding occurs as the result of ongoing cycles of abuse in which the intermittent reinforcement of reward and punishment creates powerful emotional bonds that are resistant to change.. Patrick Carnes developed the term to describe "the misuse of fear, excitement, sexual feelings, and sexual physiology to entangle another person." Is my husband so … Are [00:14:30] his behaviors so far on the spectrum that I need to set some pretty serious boundaries? Because women in this situation, if they are righteous, they cannot feel the fruits of their righteousness, because Satan is in their home, but not because of anything they’ve done. 14:36 When helping in the “he said, she said” situations step back and evaluate who is motivated by what. She’s seeking safety, she’s seeking for the truth, and it’s a process to find those things. But I think it’s helpful to make that assumption so that you can be very proactive with the resources you put in front of them. There’s two key things that make it different from common fear based traumas such as a car accident or combat, military combat. We’ve been researching and discussing betrayal trauma for probably two decades now, but I think there’s more understanding of how betrayal trauma certainly applies, and really is at the heart of these types of issues. [00:30:30] Again, not that he would suggest these things or bring them up. I started podcasting real time about my experience, and then I started a non-profit. Anne Blythe: Right, and some accountability on his end. Anne Blythe: It’s called Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I asked all of my study participants and I said, “If you’ve been through other traumas besides betrayal, does it feel different for you?” Hands down unanimously, they said, “It’s different.” It needed its own name, which is now called post-betrayal transformation. Of course [inaudible 00:33:13].” But again, that bishop is caught in the emotion, and he’s trying to assess everything, and he kind of thinks like, “Man, we’re going to lose a marriage here if we don’t say some difficult things.” I think that’s what pushed him towards saying some of those shameful things. If you previously prided yourself on your emotional stability, this out-of-control questioning can be further traumatizing to you. Our hope, our intent, isn’t to say, “Well, you leaders just don’t know what you’re talking about.” We want to recognize you’re in a very difficult situation, and our intent here is to maybe provide some thoughts, some new perspective, on situations you may be dealing with. But I think it’s helpful to make that assumption so that you can be very proactive with the resources you put in front of them. It’s not just a cute way to say a term. As a team, not … Obviously Heavenly Father, involving a stake president, but also having a professional counselor in the ring with everybody that just … In this scenario, Jill, having you on this podcast and being able to sort of toss the ball to you and say, “Okay, really help us understand this,” has been really helpful for me. Then after his arrest, [00:27:00] he still painted himself as this person of great righteousness or whatever. I think there’s a common misconception [00:14:00] about women in this situation, that they fully understand what’s happening. Kurt Francom: Yeah, that’s helpful. What does each of these people gain, possibly, through the story they’re sharing? If you are a betrayed partner, you’ve likely asked things like: This need to ask question after question can leave you, the betrayed partner, feeling out of control, emotionally unstable, and just plain furious. I think it’s important to just be aware that when someone, especially someone who is addicted [00:18:00] and is very shamed about those behaviors … feeling shameful, I should say … There’s minimizing, there’s downplaying, there’s gaslighting. After seven years of attempting to save my family and help my husband with his pornography addiction, his behaviors escalated out of control and he was actually arrested for domestic violence. Today we look at "shock," a.k.a. But Jill, how [00:17:00] do leaders handle this he said/she said so that they can actually help them move forward? For me, I didn’t understand what was happening in my life. Anne Blythe: Right, well, and because it was still occurring. Let me know how it’s going. A simpler and … Let me define [00:07:00] betrayal trauma. [00:29:00] Well, we need to make sure they have the support that they need to have their story really come out fully, and to be able to give it language, and to understand what action steps they can take. We don’t want to really accept that my husband’s abusive, because then what will that [00:20:00] mean? Dr Jill Manning: Well, and something else that I find people experience, is interesting, but I hope it’s also helpful information. When the mind and body are in a state of panic or “survival mode,” it is almost impossible to think clearly and rationally. The betrayed partner has been lied to for so long and has had his/her instincts dismissed so often by his/her partner that desperately trying to find the truth is almost inevitable. by Leading Saints | Oct 28, 2017 | Bishops, Interviews, Podcast Episodes, Relief Society, Stake Leadership, Ward Council | 0 comments, Podcast: Play in new window | Download | Embed. It's long term effects are real. Kurt Francom: It’s a great place … As the individual comes in, that’s a good place to start. But it was almost like I had made up the whole thing, or contrived it, in order to get what I wanted, and what I wanted was my husband out of the house. I mean, the only thing that could save my marriage and bring health to it was me setting a very strong boundary, like, “You need to be out of the house unless you can exhibit healthy behaviors.”. We’ve been researching and discussing betrayal trauma for probably two decades now, but I think there’s more understanding of how betrayal trauma certainly applies, and really is at the heart of these types of issues. When they have safety on the mind, those are not the leaders that are [00:39:00] waiting a long time to call in resources. Rekindle and renew your intuition and instinct. Okay, what’d you do? Yeah, I love … I appreciate that emphasis on really understanding what’s going on, and I just want to make a quick caveat here to leaders listening. That’s really a bedrock of our culture and belief system, and so I think going into situations where … We do tend, generally speaking, to be naïve. Kurt Francom: Yeah, and I think the fact that that term has the word trauma in it is very important to recognize, because there is trauma happening. Ask for more information. [00:17:30] We tend to have a lot based on testimony. You don’t have to live with the pain that comes with these traumatizing events. Dr Jill Manning: Two-thirds and 44% with personality [00:36:30] disorder traits? Ask for that immediate feedback on, “Does this ring true for you?
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